Go Back   BoxerHub > General Boxer Forums > Health Issues

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-22-2011, 02:59 PM   #1
Member
 
ShiroInu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 76
ShiroInu is on a distinguished road
Default My RANT on my DM At Risk dog!


To remove this ad please Register
Sorry . . . this is kind of long . . .

Ethical? I think not! What is your opinion?

I have had Boxers all my life; since I as a toddler. As an adult, all my Boxers came from the Treceder line, and all lived to be 12. My next Boxer was a rescue. The vets differed on his age, but he may have been 4 or 5 when I got him. I sadly had to have him euthanized 6 years later because he had a large kidney stone trapped in his urethra, was in a lot of pain, and would not lead a quality life even if surgery worked.

I was VERY depressed after he died and a couple of months later I was on my way to a shelter 3 ½ hours away to look at a heartworm positive lovely brindle male with a black mask. Before I got there my daughter told me that a friend of a friend had a litter of Boxer puppies and that one was a white.

We had a White that was born in the mid 1980s. He died when he was 12 of Mast Cell. He had full AKC registration! REALLY! I do not know if they had this limited registration stuff back then.

When I learned the White was a male, I went to see him. Turned out he was out of a champion dam, and a champion sire, and by an ABC show person. The sire had passed on and his contribution was frozen sperm.

I held my pup for hours and left a deposit for him and planned on getting him 3 weeks later when he was 8 weeks old.

Days before I was to get him the breeder emailed me to say I had to sign a contract with her and have him neutered. I was a bit shocked at the late news, but I had held him, already loved him, and had passed up the rescue.

His contract included an 8 year health guarantee for Cardiomyopathy, Corneal Dystrophy and Hip Dysplasia. Like who is going to return a beloved pet to the breeder if he/she should become ill? The breeder gave me copies of the dams certificates for these diseases, and the ones available for the sire. DM was not mentioned in the contract, or verbally by the breeder, but as I was to learn later, she knew the dam had both allels for DM, and she knew before breeding her.

A few of months ago the breeder emails me to say that HER White, who was a half brother to my pup (same sire) had to be euthanized because of DM, Degenerative Myelopathy. She told me in that email that she had had both my pup’s dam and her White tested for DM, and both tested positive for BOTH allels. She did not provide dates of testing.

She went on to say not to worry about my pup and not to bother to have him tested since the disease is late onset in life, and that not all AT RISK dogs will develop DM. She told me AT RISK dogs had a 10% chance of presenting with DM. (This is NOT true because there are not stats as yet.)

My pup’s dam had the sire in her pedigree also a couple of generations back.

The ABC says we are lucky to have our Boxers live past 10, and they do not recommend DM testing. It also says presentation of the disease can start as early as 6 years, although I cannot find the webpage to document either. I was expecting my pup to live at least 12 years.

I decided to have my pup tested for DM, and recently learned he has BOTH alleles and is therefore AT RISK! I am NOT a happy camper.

When I got his results I found on the OFA website a link to look up test results of other dogs, so I started looking around.

I discovered that on May 2009 it was reported by the OFA that my dog’s dam is AT RISK for DM; meaning she has both alleles. This was TWO MONTHS before she was artificially inseminated by my pup’s sire’s frozen semen.


I emailed my breeder and asked when her White was tested, and she said she believed it was the SAME day! Therefore, my breeder KNEW that there was at least a 50% chance my pup would be a carrier, and a 50% chance he was be AT RISK with both alleles, and the worse case, if the sire was AT RISK, my dog and all her dams pups in that litter would be AT RISK. She said semen cannot be tested for DM, but early this morning I emailed the vet at the University of Missouri who processed my dogs DNA and asked if that was true. I have not heard back from him as yet.

I also found that the dam has one sibling that is AT RISK, and 2 half siblings AT RISK. No one has done testing on the sire’s side that I can find, and I cannot find if any other dogs were tested on the dam’s side.

My pup came to me with only one testicle descended. My breeder did not realize this, and I did not think to look. She knew, however, that a potential show quality pup had only one testicle descended at 8 weeks. It was my vet who pointed it out 2 days after I brought my pup home. The testicle eventually descended, but my breeder, and members of the ABC on another Boxer forum did not seem to think an undescended testicle was a big deal in a "pet home" or whether a a dog was unilaterally or bilaterally cryptoid. AND they did not know the difference between cryptorchidsim and true monorchidism. I explained the differences, but apparently that insulted people.

I am basically put off by the ABC and their way of thinking, and I am VERY pissed off that my breeder knew DM would be an issue with my pup whether he be a carrier or AT RISK. I WISH I knew if the other two pups in the litter were carrier’s or AT RISK.

I do not care if my dog has any kind of AKC registration. But I DO think my breeder should have told me about the DM factor up front before I ever saw my pup, and I believe her lack of disclosure nullifies the contract. I believe her actions were unethical!

I also believe the ABC should require ALL breeders to test for DM before breeding, and I believe the same about Mast Cell.

Thanks for listening to my rant!

I would love some input! Should my breeder have disclosed the DM information from the get-go?

I wish Mrs. Harr of Treceder Kennels was still alive. You can find her mentioned in the older Boxer books. I would have liked to know what she considers ethical and not!
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." - Mahatma Gandhi
ShiroInu is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2011, 06:45 AM   #2
Senior Member
 
Marylou Mader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin USA
Posts: 383
Marylou Mader is on a distinguished road
Default

Dear ShiroInu:

To begin with, years ago NO tests were available, and dogs were bred and it seems now with all our technology we find more and more disease.

Prior to OFA, dogs were bred with Hip dysplasia and in Germany today, the dogs are still bred with Pos to neg, they look at phenotype and working ability and NOT just health.

Although Health screening is utmost, we must understand that if we only breed 100% cleared parents on both sides, then soon our Boxers will NO longer look like Boxers.

We are told to NOT breed pos to pos and for very good reason. But of course doing this does leave a percent of offspring with the potential to carry the gene.

There is NO sure way to guarantee health, dna and genes are the lottery of life, how they connect at conception is not for us to know, until after the fact.

Now, to NOT disclose information is criminal, unfortunately we do not use Breed Wardens in this country, we are given freedom to use any dog to breed to, even if it has been dead for years.

I'm sorry you have had problems with this breeder, but is it just the idea of a Risk? we all have dogs at risk...

The undescended testicle is wrong, she should have warned you, breeding to sperm does have a risk, as she may NOT have health records on the dog, as he may have died prior to any being available. Did she say WHY she bred to this dog? Was it a connection with pedigree? Pheno-type???

Try not to be so bitter, have fun here with us and enjoy your beloved dog, you have great Boxer history and maybe you could share some of that with us that have only had this loving breed for shorter time than you...

I also have Rotties and Dachshunds, I have shown, Weimaraners, and trust me, if you want to see some mean evil people, go to that Breed, I have found mean evil in many breeds over my years, and I must say, the Boxers are the BEST :0)
__________________
Marylou Mäder
Linderhof Boxers
Marylou Mader is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2011, 08:22 AM   #3
Senior Member
 
bruinsBoxers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,189
bruinsBoxers will become famous soon enough
Default

I am sorry you are upset .

The ABC says we are lucky to have our Boxers live past 10, and they do not recommend DM testing. It also says presentation of the disease can start as early as 6 years, although I cannot find the webpage to document either. I was expecting my pup to live at least 12 years.

the ABC does reccomend to test for DM , they may not have it posted on their site . But they reccomend many tests prior to breeding. DM is mostly an age onset disease usually showing up at age 8-9, but there have been cases reported of the symptoms showing much earlier .

Now not all at risk dogs will get the disease , you would really have to look at the dogs in the pedigree to see how many were affected , the more affected dogs in the pedigree the more of a chance you dog may get it .

If she knew the dam was at risk then I think she should have disclosed that .

My bitch Edy is at risk for DM , and she has any close relatives who have been put down due to DM . And I did breed her - it was to a clear stud dog .
And I feel fine about breeding her .

I also believe the ABC should require ALL breeders to test for DM before breeding, and I believe the same about Mast Cell.

Well there is not test for mast cell -so how can we test for it ?
The breeders who test will continue to test . The ones who don't will not test even if ABC requires it . ABC is a club - nothing more . If people do not want to belong to ABC or follow their rules they do not have to .

Since you pup is white and not supposed to be bred she might not have checked to see if both testicles were decsended , he would have to be neutered anyway.

I have placed males with only one testicle as pets , and only 1 testicle descended is very common in boxers . I don't think it is a huge deal as long as it is disclosed .

When you went to look at the puppies did you ask about health testing?
Did she show you hard copies of the test results?
__________________
Missi
Bruins Boxers
bruinsBoxers is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2011, 09:30 AM   #4
Senior Member
 
Erin251's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 573
Erin251 is on a distinguished road
Default

sorry you had to go through that.i do think that testing should be required and they should tell you all the results..the undescended testicle is not a big deal, because you had signed a contract to have him neutered anyway, it would make any difference, but it should have been mentioned... i do think you may be over reacting a little though, while you shouldn't have had to go through all that, you did, its done and over with and theres not really anything you can do about it other then not recommend her to anyone.
do you still have the pup? how is he?
__________________
Erin251 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2011, 09:48 AM   #5
Member
 
ShiroInu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 76
ShiroInu is on a distinguished road
Default

Hi MaryLou,

Thanks for your response, and especially thank you for not attacking me for having an opinion, as I WAS attacked on two other Boxer forums for having an opinion that did not agree with the ABC.

Shiro’s sire was my breeder’s dog also. He was an international champion and produced many champions. (I had no intention to look for or buy a pup from a breeder. My pup just happened along as I was traveling to look at shelter Boxer. I did not know his pedigree or that he came from a line of champions until I went to look at him. I thought he was coming from a back yard breeder.)

I used to consider myself a “Boxer Snob” as I always was drawn to a Boxer with the attributes of the standard of the day. It was not until I got my rescue, who was far from perfect, that I mellowed out. He humbled me. Faults or not, I still like an excellent stop.

I have copies of my dog’s sire’s OFA certifications on Hip Dysplasia, Congenital Cardiac Disease; Canine Eye Registration Foundation Certificates; and labs indicating his Thyroid was normal.

I also have copies of my dog’s dam’s OFA certification on Hip Dysplasia, Congenital Cardiac Disease; and Canine Eye Registration Foundation Certificates.

I know there was no DNA test for DM when the sire was alive, but I know from looking on the OFA site that the dam was reported to be AT RISK for DM on May 13, 2009, and that my pup was born the end of September.

I spent about 2 hours with the breeder the day I picked up my pup. She carefully went over his pedigree and all the health certificates on both the dam and the sire. She even told me that one of the 3 male pups (not Shiro) had one retained testicle; a pup she had hoped to sell as a show dog. She did not mention DM or send me home with the AT RISK report on Shiro's dam.

A week after I sent Shiro’s DM DNA swab Dr. Gary Johnson at the Univ of Missouri I began looking for his results on the OFA site. Him having come from a breeder who was so careful to go over his pedigree and the health certificates on his parents, I KNOW in my heart of hearts, that she must have been as anxious as I was to get the DNA results on her dog; and probably more so.

I am not bitter, I am angry. To me, there is a difference. I love Shiro as I have adored and loved all my dogs, present and past.

I am angry that my breeder knew Shiro’s dam was AT RISK for DM and did not disclose this to me. I am angry that she knew Shiro’s half brother (same sire) had both alleles for DM and she did not share this with me. I am angry that she did not tell me both dogs were AT RISK until her dog died of DM more than a year after I bought Shiro.

I am angry that my breeder was not aware Shiro had only one descended testicle and had to be told by my vet two days after bringing him home. I was faithfully going by my contract terms to bring him to my vet within two days. My vet was able to palpate the testicle in his abdominal area.

Since my breeder wanted to know about health issues I emailed her to tell her about the undescended testicle. I am angry that she said it was no big deal, and that Shiro’s half sibling also had an undescended testicle that was surgically removed from the abdominal area when he was neutered. I prefer male dogs and was not anticipating having to pay the price of a spay instead of a neuter when Shiro was to be neutered. As a reminder, the right testicle finally did descend months later.

I respectfully disagree with your opinion about breeding only cleared parents resulting in Boxers no longer looking like Boxers. I disagree with the opinion of the ABC, OFA and various websites that say breeding only DM cleared parents would greatly reduce the number of Boxers, and that DM should only be considered in the overall breeding program.

What is wrong with reducing the number of Boxer if DM can be bred out of the breed? To me this is a noble goal.

My opinion comes from my 61 years on this earth and coming from a prominent family. It is my opinion that the wealthy, the prominent and the powerful control and run this country, and that laws and “recommendations” are created for their best interest. It is my opinion that the real reason breeders continue to breed dogs with familial genetic mutations is because most Boxer show people and breeders would go out of business and they would loose their claim to fame and prominence in their niche of the world.

Having spent time on other Boxer forums I am of the opinion that it is people like me who end up with the Boxers the breeders do not see as show quality because of familial mutations, other heath problems and faults, and of course . . . that they are Parties and Whites. We are the ones who go through the pain of having unhealthy dogs.

I believe this is like everything else . . . big business.

None the less, I LOVE Boxers. Had it not been for one of my childhood Boxers I would not have survived my childhood. He was my best friend, my pillow, my confidant and keeper of my secrets. I am the only sibling in my family who continued having Boxers when we grew up. And, I am estranged from my prominent extended family because I go not agree with their lack of values and lack of integrity.

AND MOST OF ALL, I appreciate your opinion and response to my RANT!
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." - Mahatma Gandhi
ShiroInu is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2011, 10:01 AM   #6
Member
 
ShiroInu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 76
ShiroInu is on a distinguished road
Default

It takes me a l o n g time to put together my posts, and I see there are more posts here.

Thanks to all who have shared their opinions.

I think the ABC has changed their website. I had not looked at it in awhile until I got my DM results back. My interpretation of what is posted on breeding programs is that the ABC does not require anything, but recommends.

I would need to do some googling on Mast Cell. I though I came upon information that a gene has been isolated, but I guess I wrong.

Yes! I still have my 70 pound hunk of wild child Boxer! I believe when we acquire a pet he/she is our responsibly for life. The only problem I have is that my husband does not want dogs in bed with us. I respect this, but long to sleep with my two big dogs.

I also believe it is important to make sure we make arrangements for our dogs go to good homes after we die.

Thanks for the input everyone!
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." - Mahatma Gandhi
ShiroInu is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2011, 12:03 PM   #7
Senior Member
 
bruinsBoxers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,189
bruinsBoxers will become famous soon enough
Default

I respectfully disagree with your opinion about breeding only cleared parents resulting in Boxers no longer looking like Boxers. I disagree with the opinion of the ABC, OFA and various websites that say breeding only DM cleared parents would greatly reduce the number of Boxers, and that DM should only be considered in the overall breeding program.

What is wrong with reducing the number of Boxer if DM can be bred out of the breed? To me this is a noble goal.


The problem is that there are many genetic diseases out there .Like the heart issues boxers so commonly have , these too must be screened for . I can guarantee you that you would never find 2 boxers with perfect testing results that compliment each other . Just won't happen , that is where a breeder must deicde what test result is acceptable and what is not . And then of course you have the breeders who do not test at all .

Lets say 10% of the tested boxer population is clear , 60% at risk and 30% carriers . If you remove the dogs who have not passed SAS screening , have repeatedly clear holters , passing thyroid and passing hips .You have 6% of the tested population to breed from .

Think of the genetic bottleneck you would have . How many diseases are there that we do not know much about , that may be recessive ( likeJRD) . Do we really want more diseases to pop up ?

I can understand why you are mad . the breeder had test results that they did not share with you . ( and I guess you were not aware of DM until later ) .

There is nothing wrong with reducing DM , and the ABC reccomends slowly eliminating the disease . To elimainate the at risk slowly over a few generations . To get more clears in the tested population to which to breed to . To not create a genetic bottleneck and cause more diseases which will only hurt the breed in the future.

This may sound harsh and it is not meant to be . But there are dogs dropping dead at 2 years old because of ARVC . Which test is more important , heart screening or DM . Ask someone who had a dog drop dead at 2 , they will tell you holtering for ARVC, ask someone who put their dog down due to DM
at 10 , they will tell you DM .
There is no right or wrong answer .


Having spent time on other Boxer forums I am of the opinion that it is people like me who end up with the Boxers the breeders do not see as show quality because of familial mutations, other heath problems and faults, and of course . . . that they are Parties and Whites. We are the ones who go through the pain of having unhealthy dogs.

Not sure what forum you are talking about but I belong to may forums . And I know of many breeders whose show dogs who get sick and die . It is not just people who get a dog for a companion .Anyone who has a pet will go through the pain of an unhealthy or sick dog at some point . Disease does not discriminate .
I have put down 2 dogs to cancer , one of heart/cancer . I have 1 at risk for DM who most likely WILL actually get it .

At the time of their birth ALL of these dogs were healthy.
There is no way for anyone to know exactly how genes will match up , which healthy puppy may get what disease . There is NO guarantee ever with any living being .

There are many good and ethical breeders out there . It just happens that you may have found one that is better then a BYB who does no testing but not 100% truthful as many others .Please do not lump ALL breeders who show into the same catergory as the person who did not disclose info to you .
__________________
Missi
Bruins Boxers
bruinsBoxers is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2011, 12:20 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
Erin251's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 573
Erin251 is on a distinguished road
Default

missi~ i love reading all your posts, so much info and really makes you think
__________________
Erin251 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2011, 09:32 AM   #9
Member
 
ShiroInu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 76
ShiroInu is on a distinguished road
Default

Thank you for you post Missi,

I used Shiro's name as part of, or all of my sign in name on the other two boxer forums so you might recognize me by Shiro's name.

I see nothing wrong with starting over with the breed to eliminate all the currently known familial genetic mutations by breeding only dogs clear of all known genetic disease. After all, the breed was created. My breeder tells me there are dogs out there with no known health defects. At this point I do not know if that is true or not.

If you know you have a devastating genetic disease that had not presented yet, and knew this before having children, would you have children? I wouldn't, but I know hormones, youth, love, and lack of knowledge can get in the way of making these decisions, or even being aware such decisions can be made.

On the other hand, I believe every woman has the right to have an abortion if this is her choice, BUT I don't think I could do it myself even if I was carrying a child that I knew would be born with birth defect.

My first husband died of a rare bone cancer in 1983. 9 months before he died he knew he would not survive, but he chose to allow the doctors to give him experimental drugs, perform tests and surgeries on his body in the hope he could help save the lives of those in the future that would get his disease, and possibly prevent it. At that time doctors had not isolated a gene mutation that could lead to his type of cancer. They have now identified one, but there is still no clear understanding if that gene alone causes the cancer or whether it is a combination of other biological events.

Both my mother and my brother have had thoracic aortic dissections. Both my mothers brothers have had abdominal aortic dissections. All have survived. There are 5 familial genetic mutations that have been isolated in thoracic aortic dissections, and there is a disease in which dissections are prevalent. No one in my family has that disease.

My mother and my bother have REFUSED to participate in genetic testing even though it would not cost them a cent and only requires a swab of the mouth or blood drawn. My my opinion, their selfishness COULD affect the entire family, their children and grandchildren and so on as dissections come without warning and CTs of the aorta can be normal one day, and a person could die the next.

My examples may not be good analogies, but I believe if there is a known factor that can kill or cause quality of life to be lacking, it deserves investigation and irradiation if that means not producing off spring.

I won't post on the subject anymore and I DO appreciate the input, but I want you all to know, that with the exception of my very first dog as an adult, who spent 9 of his 12 years totally blind, I sit on a blanket on the floor at my vet's office and cradle my dogs in my lap when they all have had to be euthanized. I either bring them home and bury them or have them cremated and bring their ashes home to bury them.

My first dog died not long after my first husband died of cancer. I was emotionally overwhelmed at the time, and hope Brumus forgives me for not being with him when he died.

Thanks again for all the input everyone.
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." - Mahatma Gandhi
ShiroInu is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2011, 09:45 AM   #10
Ron
Owner/Admin
 
Ron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,165
Ron has a reputation beyond reputeRon has a reputation beyond reputeRon has a reputation beyond reputeRon has a reputation beyond reputeRon has a reputation beyond reputeRon has a reputation beyond reputeRon has a reputation beyond reputeRon has a reputation beyond reputeRon has a reputation beyond reputeRon has a reputation beyond reputeRon has a reputation beyond repute
Default

the folks over at Doberman hub could learn alot about having a constructive debate from you guys
__________________
tie - 13-year-old flashy brindle male
Newman - 2 Year Old flashy Brindle male

-----------------------
Check out our sister site DobermanHub
Ron is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.5.2