Question on raw, ground already meats.

Doreen · 09-12-2009, 09:54 PM

Ok.... giving raw foods is tough for me, but I'm thinking I can try already ground foods, like ground turkey, beef, pork, veal..... my question is, if I am just using the ground up foods, no bones, the thought of having raw bones laying around actually makes me nauseous! what else do I need to add. I am getting bits and pieces here and there and it would really help to have all that I need to know in one place, here, such as supplements and what about potatoes too?

KeeperBoy · 09-12-2009, 10:08 PM

You'll need bone meal. You can get it at health food stores or high end pet stores. You'll also need to add about 10% organ (liver, kidney, lung). You can add other things too (eggs, potato, veggies).

I found when starting raw it was easiest to buy pre made dog food mixes. They are frozen and have the bone already ground in the food. Nature's Variety makes ground raw, as does Primal and Bravo. Many places also have local companies who make dog food mixes too.

whitedaisy · 09-12-2009, 10:22 PM

The dog must consume bone, but yes, it can be bone meal powder. I'm glad to see you thinking about it!!!

In time, I hope you would consider the whole bone parts though. There is such great benefit to the chewing and crunching. Starting out slow is fine, and maybe once you get the hang of raw the bones won't bother you so much! Some of us actually love to hear that crunchy noise LOL

Here is a great sticky to get you started on reading though

An Intro To Raw Feeding

AussieGirl · 09-12-2009, 10:26 PM

What KeeperBoy said

. If you can find a product that has ground bone in it then all you have to add is some offal. If you cant get ground with bone then some bone meal will do the job. You can add some sweet potato, I wouldn't add other types of vegies if you are wanting him to gain weight though - they will be of no help in that area, but if gaining weight is not an issue then add any types of veg that are dog safe

. If you plan on feeding fish regularly you don't need to add omega - fish oil, if you can't handle feeding fish you might want to add omega - fish oil (can't advise you which one is good - I just give sardines) and then the other probiotics and stuff mentioned for the colitis. It really isn't as hard as it initially seems

.

Spyglass Sally · 09-13-2009, 05:40 AM

I had to laugh when I read "the thought of having raw bones laying around actually makes me nauseous!" Good for you for moving ahead with this! But, fyi, I doubt raw bones will be laying around much. Buddy's chomps down his chicken legs in minutes!

For the ground portion of Buddy's food, I mix in probiotics, digestive enzymes, fish oil on the day of feeding. This is added to a premix I make of about 8-9 days worth of food (and then freeze in smaller containers). Half his food is the premix, half is chunks of meat or bone.

The premix is Doggie Oats from Dr. Pitcairn's book. The recipe is:

5 C oats (makes about 11 C when cooked - I use quick oats but you can also use bulgur, etc.)
3 lbs (or 6 C) raw ground turkey (or whatever)
1/4 C veg oil
1 C cooked vegetables (or less raw, if grated or juiced)
6 tablespoons Healthy Powder (see below)
4 teaspoons KAL bone meal
10,000 IU vitamin A (optional if using carrots)
400 IU vitamin E
1 teaspoon tamari soy sauce
1-2 cloves garlic
I also add 1 pound of ground organ meat (usually liver) so it's spread out over the week in his food. You don't need to add this if Doggie Oats are the mainstay food.

Cook the oats, mix it all together and freeze in whatever size container you like. Instead of the added vitamins in the above and Healthy Powder, I pierce & squeeze the contents of one Carlson's A,C, E vitamin which has the equivalents of the ACE listed. I have those around anyway for us since extra ACE's are good immune boosters if you feel a cold or something coming on.

If your dog doesn't tolerate grains, you will want to adjust the recipe and probably add more meat. Also, for each pound of meat, you may also substitute 1 pint cottage cheese + 4 eggs, or 16 oz tofu + 4 eggs. Add the eggs while the oats are warm to help set the mixture.

Healthy Powder:

2 C nutritional or brewer's yeast
1 C lecithin granules
1/4 C kelp powder
4 tablespoons bone meal powder
1,000 mg vitamin C or 1/4 teaspoon sodium ascorbate)

The above makes a bunch of powder that you can use for many batches of food. Just put it in a ziplock.

It's a bit of work the first time you make it, but then it goes pretty smoothly and then you have a ton of food all prepared and ready to go. Buddy loves it and it's a real convenient way to feed him because I put it in 2 cup containers (which works out to around 12 oz of food for those who go by weight instead of volume). He gets one a day and for the rest of his meal I can give him however much chunks of meat or bone he requires for the day.

However, in his book, Dr. Pitcairn says this can form the mainstay of fresh, home-prepared food for your dog. In other words, you don't need to give chunks of meat or bone if that makes you nauseous.

Just give more of this, which just looks like mush - no crunchy bones.

You could also skip the adding the ground liver since his original recipe doesn't call for it. It's just an easy way for me to add it to Buddy's diet which includes other raw meat & bones. His recommended daily ration (obviously see if your dog requires more/less) is:

Toy (up to 15 lbs): 1-2C
Small (15-19lbs): about 4 C
Medium (30-60lbs): 6-7 C
Large(60-90lbs): about 8C
Giant(>90lbs): 9+C

Keep up the questions! They're good questions and we can all learn from them!

Doreen · 09-13-2009, 09:11 AM

Can I just buy a container of chicken livers or gizzards.. I don't know what is in those round containers, but I know I used to buy it for my mom, she would cook them and eat them... grosss !!!!!! But is that something I could be using as an "organ" I think someone told me to add.

I wouldn't have to grind that? Just put it in the bowl too?

Doreen · 09-13-2009, 09:15 AM

So, this oatmeal mixture goes in the same bowl along with the ground food? This all seems like alot of food???? Or is this a different meal altogether, LOL?

And did you say potatoes will not help put weight on him?

Doreen · 09-13-2009, 09:22 AM

another thing.... I had seen a chart on one of the posts here to tell me how much to feed Rex according to his weight. Is this just the meat portions or is that with all of this oatmeal and everything altogether? I think according to the chart, Rex needs 2.24 lbs per day.

I also feed him 3 times a day instead of twice. He just seemed to need it, he is always so hungry and I thought that smaller amounts throughout the day would be better for his stomach.

KeeperBoy · 09-13-2009, 11:48 AM

The 1-2% should be everything. You can get organ from your normal food store, you can also find a butcher for some other types. Keepers ate 3x/day until we got the colitis under control. Now he eats twice/day.

Spyglass Sally · 09-13-2009, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doreen

Can I just buy a container of chicken livers or gizzards.. I don't know what is in those round containers, but I know I used to buy it for my mom, she would cook them and eat them... grosss !!!!!! But is that something I could be using as an "organ" I think someone told me to add.

I wouldn't have to grind that? Just put it in the bowl too?

Yes, you can just buy chicken livers and put them in the bowl. Not sure, but gizzards might be considered a meat. But definitely you can just put the chicken livers in a bowl because they're smaller than the beef.

If you are not mixing up the Doggie Oats, but just giving organs "straight" I would be sure you start slow with the organ meat because it is rich. Give Rex a little bit at a time and see how he does as he gets used to it. If it's mixed in with all the Doggie Oats he won't get that much at once so I wouldn't worry about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doreen

So, this oatmeal mixture goes in the same bowl along with the ground food? This all seems like alot of food???? Or is this a different meal altogether, LOL?

It does all go in the same bowl and is a LOT of food. That's why you'll want to freeze it in smaller containers that you can pull out during the week. I freeze 8-9 two cup servings at a time but it's only part of his food. If it's Rex's main dish you can use bigger containers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doreen

I had seen a chart on one of the posts here to tell me how much to feed Rex according to his weight. Is this just the meat portions or is that with all of this oatmeal and everything altogether? I think according to the chart, Rex needs 2.24 lbs per day.

I also feed him 3 times a day instead of twice

The charts say 2-3% of what his ideal body weight will be (not what he is right now). That includes meat, bone & organ.

A very good calculator is at http://www.taylorpondfarms.com/Articles.asp?ID=132 . You enter in your dogs weight, what percentage you want, and then it will give you the breakdown of meat, bone and organ on a daily and monthly basis. Or weekly if you change the Number of Days field. It's helpful when grocery shopping or just trying to get a handle on how much you need.

I agree with KeeperBoy about feeding more frequently right now, due to the colitis. We found that with Buddy too.

Rex is a lucky dog!