Article on raw...

[Ruby Red]

This came up on another forum I am on:

Should pet owners make homemade, raw meat meals for their pets?

In recent years, there has been a growing trend in feeding pet dogs and cats raw meat diets. So what, if any, are the benefits and risks of a raw meat diet? There are many differing opinions, but it does seem to come down to two issues -- nutrition and safety. Dogs are omnivores, like humans. They need meat, grains, and vegetables. The challenge with any diet that has not been carefully formulated by veterinary nutritionist is to ensure that the pet gets all of their daily nutritional needs in a safe and balanced way. That is why feeding a high quality, commercially prepared diet is the easiest, most economical, and healthiest option.

Here's what experts say about a raw food diet for pets:

NUTRITION:

ADVOCATES SAY:

-- your pet will get the highest nutritional value from raw foods
-- your pet will be healthier, less likely to get sick, and live longer
-- your pet's performance, coat, body odor, teeth, and breath will improve
-- raw food diets don't have unhealthy additives, such as preservatives
-- raw foods have important nutrients and enzymes that cooking destroys

CRITICS SAY:

-- raw diets are not necessarily complete and balanced
-- there is no study that shows raw food diets are healthier for pets
-- raw food diets may be difficult for your pet to digest
-- bones can damage the animal's teeth and digestive tract

SAFETY:

ADVOCATES SAY:

-- there is NO greater risk handling raw meat for animals than there is for people. The same precautions should be taken.
-- dogs and cats have very different systems than humans. They have stronger stomach acids and pass along food much more quickly, therefore they are not at high risk

CRITICS SAY:

-- health risks for people, associated with handling raw meats, including bacteria and parasites (eg. E.Coli, salmonella, Campylobactor, Trichinella), are a concern
-- pets are just as susceptible to the bacteria and parasites in raw meats as humans
-- while some proponents say freezing will kill the bacteria, it is not true
-- cooking meat is the best way to kill pathogens

From the American Veterinary Medical Association: "There is a greater apparent risk to animals and humans from feeding a raw meat diet," Dr. Strohmeyer commented. "I really do not think that there is any advice we, as veterinarians, can give to improve safety. You can give basic food safety guidelines like hand washing, cleaning surfaces, and bowls, etc., not letting the food sit out for extended periods of time. I just think that it would be a disservice for a veterinarian to give any recommendation for the safety of dogs and their owners (except to not feed raw meat to pets). Bacteria are not the only health concern, there are also parasites and protozoal organisms that can be transmitted in raw meat, even meat labeled fit for human consumption."

Another concern is food safety. According to veterinary nutritionist, Dr. Rebecca Remillarde, the link between handling raw foods at home and exposure to food-borne organisms resulting in food poisoning has been well-documented. Not only does it put humans at risk, but animals are also susceptible to certain sub-species of E.Coli and salmonella. In fact, given the potential risk of handling raw foods, coupled with the growing trend (and therefore increased number of companies producing and selling raw products), the FDA has set up guidelines for just such companies.

From: Pets and Your Health: Separating Fact, Fiction - The Early Show - CBS News

[Ruby Red]

This was my reply - I tried to keep it balanced - I could have said alot more about raw feeding but I wanted my response to be more about the weakness of the article rather than promoting raw feeding as such. I would be really interested to know what you guys think of it all though................

I don't agree with much of this article - no surprises there. It even starts off on the wrong foot -

Their vet was against the raw diet because of having to add so many supplements and nutrients to the food to give the dog what it needs in its diet.

Many raw feeders do not supplement their dog’s diets. Many feed just raw bones and meat and that is it - supplementing is an individual decision that some raw feeders make, but the 'purists' do not supplement. I won't go on about the ‘dogs in the wild’ argument because this can be countered by the ‘evolutionary argument’ - dogs have evolved since this time, etc, etc. Interesting to point out that whilst dogs may have evolved to live with humans and eat our food - their digestive systems appear not to have done so. It is argued that it remains 99% the same as that of a wild wolf.

They need meat, grains, and vegetables.

Dogs need grains - this again is an extremely and highly arguable point - with many arguments both for and against - no one can say for definite one way or another that they are an essential part of a dog's diet. The same argument applies for the addition of vegetables.

The challenge with any diet that has not been carefully formulated by veterinary nutritionist is to ensure that the pet gets all of their daily nutritional needs in a safe and balanced way. That is why feeding a high quality, commercially prepared diet is the easiest, most economical, and healthiest option.

Well if only that was true – It is interesting to point out here that even nutritionists that create the kibble cannot seem to agree amongst themselves how much meat, grains, vet, vits, etc should actually go into the kibble - hence why there are so many different brands available on the market............. I agree that it is more economical and easier to feed a commercial diet.

ADVOCATES SAY:

-- your pet will get the highest nutritional value from raw foods
-- your pet will be healthier, less likely to get sick, and live longer
-- your pet's performance, coat, body odor, teeth, and breath will improve
-- raw food diets don't have unhealthy additives, such as preservatives
-- raw foods have important nutrients and enzymes that cooking destroys

point 1 - depends on the quality of the raw diet - a raw diet that is high in fat, ligament, cartilage, bone, may be considered raw but is totally unbalanced as it lacks essential muscle meat.

point 2 - well if only that was true. Jakey cannot take a raw diet - it gives him chronic diarrhoea. It suits Ruby perfectly and Roddy is looking good on it too. NO diet IMO is a licence to say that any dog will live healthier or longer lives - genetics play a part as well as the amount of social/physical and mental stimulation the dog gets each day.

point 3 - depends whether the raw diet suits the dog

point 4 - depends on what the animals that were killed were fed I would have thought - many poor animals are pumped full of growth hormones, antibiotics, etc, etc.

point 5 - I agree with

CRITICS SAY:

-- raw diets are not necessarily complete and balanced
-- there is no study that shows raw food diets are healthier for pets
-- raw food diets may be difficult for your pet to digest
-- bones can damage the animal's teeth and digestive tract

point 1 - ...........'not necessarily'.................an arguable point - many strands of raw feeding....

point 2 - there are similarly no studies as far as I am aware anyway that can definitively prove that a kibble diet is any healthier either.
point 3 – probably depends on the health of your dog [see arguments below]

point 4 - I agree with. This is why I never let mine chew on marrow bones and only give Ruby bones to eat because she eats them sensibly. I would never advocate feeding raw bones to a dog that is likely to just chomp on it a few times and then just swallow it down - you have to be sensible about it and supervise your dog.

SAFETY:

ADVOCATES SAY:

-- there is NO greater risk handling raw meat for animals than there is for people. The same precautions should be taken.
-- dogs and cats have very different systems than humans. They have stronger stomach acids and pass along food much more quickly, therefore they are not at high risk

Yes I agree, point 2 is mentioned above and see article below.

CRITICS SAY:

-- health risks for people, associated with handling raw meats, including bacteria and parasites (e.g. E.Coli, salmonella, Campylobactor, Trichinella), are a concern
-- pets are just as susceptible to the bacteria and parasites in raw meats as humans
-- while some proponents say freezing will kill the bacteria, it is not true
-- cooking meat is the best way to kill pathogens

point 1 I do believe that this is the case where you have people that are immune suppressed - they are at more risk if they do not carry out proper cleansing procedures. I don’t know of any more ill health in butchers than in the general public?

point 2 & 3- this is true but dogs that are fit and healthy are able to deal with these bacteria - it's dogs that are poorly and immune suppressed that may not be able to do so – see arguments below. It is true that freezing does not kill bacteria.

point 4 - true, coking is the simplest way to kill pathogens in food that is to be eaten, but cooking also destroys some of the nutrients and vitamins in the meat, fact.

As for the rest of the article I stopped reading from the point where it says

I just think that it would be a disservice for a veterinarian to give any recommendation for the safety of dogs and their owners (except to not feed raw meat to pets).

Having raw fed my last dog that lived to 17 and half years, and only went to the vets a handful of times and didn't die from anything food related! and having raw fed Ruby since we have had her, I can only speak from my own experiences. Until someone can show me hard statistical facts that prove beyond repute that only kibble is the ultimate diet for my dogs, I shall carry on feeding them what I think is the best diet for them and what they seem to thrive on, namely a raw diet. This is my decision to make for my dogs. I totally respect the fact that many others prefer to feed a dry diet - as I always say - each to their own.

[Ruby Red]

Re: Can dogs salmonilla poisoning from eating raw meat?

Yes, the bacteria in raw meat might hurt your dog IF the dog already has an immunocompromised system or some underlying problem. Raw diets have also been blamed for causing things like pancreatitis and kidney disease, when in reality the underlying disease was already there and was brought to light by the change in diet. Dogs are surprisingly well-equipped to deal with bacteria. Their saliva has antibacterial properties; it contains lysozyme, an enzyme that lyses and destroys harmful bacteria. Their short digestive tract is designed to push through food and bacteria quickly without giving bacteria time to colonize. The extremely acidic environment in the gut is also a good bacteria colonization deterrent. People often point to the fact that dogs shed salmonella in their feces (even kibble-fed dogs do this) without showing any ill effects as proof that the dog is infected with salmonella. In reality, all this proves is that the dog has effectively passed the salmonella through its system with no problems. Yes, the dog can act as a salmonella carrier, but the solution is simple—do not eat dog crap and wash your hands after picking up after your dog.

Even kibble-fed dogs regularly shed salmonella and other bacteria. Most of the documented cases of severe bacterial septicemia are from kibble-fed animals or animals suffering from reactions to vaccines. Commercial pet foods have been pulled off shelves more than once because of bacteria AND molds that produce a deadly toxin. The solution? Use common sense. Clean up well and wash your hands. And think about your dog—this is an animal that can lick itself, lick other dogs, eat a variety of disgusting rotting things, and ingest its own feces or those of other animals with no ill effects. The dog, plain and simple, can handle greater bacterial loads than we can. Can dogs get sick from the bacteria? I suppose they can. But it is rare and usually indicative of an underlying problem, especially when one stops to consider how much bacteria that dog probably comes in contact with every single day. One must ask "Why this dog? Why now? What has made this particular dog susceptible to bacterial overgrowth?" Something is not 'right' regarding the dog's health—a healthy dog does not suffer from bacterial infections or bacterial septicemia. That is just common sense. A dog suffering from "salmonella poisoning" is obviously not healthy, especially when compared to a dog that ate the same food with the same salmonella load but is perfectly healthy and unaffected. The first dog has suffered a 'breakdown' in its health that allowed the bacteria to become a problem; if one is talking in homeopathic medicine terminology, this is simply one more symptom that shows the dog is suffering from chronic disease .

From: Myths About Raw: Will the bacteria in raw meat hurt my dog?

[Spyglass Sally]

Very interesting, Stephanie. It looks like you put a lot of effort into presenting something that is well informed, fair, and tolerant to others who may have different beliefs.

I saw another response to this at Response to AVMA article Jan 15 05 which I thought was very interesting as well.

I tried to find who supplied the funding for Dr. Rachel Strohmeyer (she's a researcher at the Animal Population Health Institute, Colorado State University) to see if it was associated with a kibble company, but couldn't find anything.

You bring up a lot of good points and presented them well - good job! And thanks for sharing it with us too.

[Annie]

Thanks, its obvious that you have put a lot of time and consideration into this. I am pretty new to raw feeding and looking more closely at ingredients in kibbles, I appreciate your knowledge and opinions

[Ruby Red]

Many thanks for that link Sally - it makes very interesting reading.

[Erin251]

very interesting.... i thought of something that i do not think anyone has mentioned yet...when humans turned wolves into dogs they all ate raw meat that they shared with the humans.. and it was like that for hundreds of years and only changed, i believe, when someone had the idea to make money by making a kibble made out off the leftovers not used in human food, and since it was much more convenient to use that most people just kind of fell away from the raw foods... kibble has come far from those days, but raw is still the most natural way to go. though i dont do it, because of time and money... just my two cents

[Spyglass Sally]

Originally Posted by Erin251

very interesting.... i thought of something that i do not think anyone has mentioned yet...when humans turned wolves into dogs they all ate raw meat that they shared with the humans.. and it was like that for hundreds of years and only changed, i believe, when someone had the idea to make money by making a kibble made out off the leftovers not used in human food, and since it was much more convenient to use that most people just kind of fell away from the raw foods... kibble has come far from those days, but raw is still the most natural way to go. though i dont do it, because of time and money... just my two cents

Your post made me remember, Erin, a conversation I had with my grandmother about 35 years ago. I was buying some dog food for our dog and she couldn't believe it. She wondered when did they start making that? She only remembered giving dogs table scraps. It seemed like a waste of money to buy dog food to her.

[AussieGirl]

I think you did a wonderful job Stephanie.
I think there will always be a debate but it is kinda silly how extreme some people get. I mean I eat meat but I don't go and try to convince vegetarians (just an example, nothing against it) that my diet is better and I have never been told by vegetarian family or friends that theirs is better so why do people get so worked up over RAW feeding their pets???? IMO what the animal does BEST on (not just doing okay) is the right diet.
Erin you are correct, kibble is really only a recent development compared to Raw feeding or home cooking.

[Ruby Red]

Originally Posted by Spyglass Sally

Your post made me remember, Erin, a conversation I had with my grandmother about 35 years ago. I was buying some dog food for our dog and she couldn't believe it. She wondered when did they start making that? She only remembered giving dogs table scraps. It seemed like a waste of money to buy dog food to her.

LOL - I understand way your grandma meant. My father says the same thing. He was born in Greece on a farm and they kept hunting dogs. My dad says those dogs got bones and bread and milk and table scraps - anything else they had to go find it and kill it for themselves - dog food? never heard of it!

Originally Posted by AussieGirl

I think you did a wonderful job Stephanie.
I think there will always be a debate but it is kinda silly how extreme some people get. I mean I eat meat but I don't go and try to convince vegetarians (just an example, nothing against it) that my diet is better and I have never been told by vegetarian family or friends that theirs is better so why do people get so worked up over RAW feeding their pets???? IMO what the animal does BEST on (not just doing okay) is the right diet.

Thanks Gizelle, I agree with you. This whole area of dog diets is such a nightmare really - so many conflicting views and so much conflicting 'evidence.' At the end of the day all you can do is go by the health of your own dog.